I am not going to bother addressing the all the points in the article you posted - certainly the HUB will never be a DIR piece of kit.
It suffices to say there are some errors as always.
The Airlock system is a great device for those with low finger strength. It has a mechanical lock that engages after the air drive tensions the belt. It cannot come undone unless released.
The other significant thing is the Occy system works! How do I know? I am alive today because of it. I suffered a RB failure at 23 metres and my buddy handed me the HUB Occy - no worries! ( Note: first hand experience by a diver diving, not something I read somewhere)
Whether you like the design or not, I really don't care but the future of diving is determined by those that think outside of the square and in this case Natural Selection is via the market place.
Training issues specific to the HUB are now included in PADI O/W course notes.
I can understand Instructors using a more conventional jacket and I can agree. The HUB is an innovation and not for everyone. I do not use one, but I use the Dragonfly Airtrim BC based on the HUB for recreational diving.
You can see a review of this jacket by Dave H. in the Product Reviews section for an unbiased report. Note that many of the features Aitrim, Vest cut etc, that are criticised in the article Brad posted, are commented on by Dave in a different light.
The only time I've seen one of these was on my IE when the examiner used one.
I thought the pnuematic cam thingy was interesting (slightly useless for most users) but I can see the value for people with low grip strength.
After reading both reviews it is interesting that you can get such different things said about the same bit of kit.
Objections such as stashing occys in pockets are well founded in my opinion ...you can do this on standard bcds but at least they don't encourage it by design... but then you dont have to dive with them in there. The "ease" of use of the oral inflator concerns me and frankly I agree completely with negative review of the hose system.
I have a ten year old seaquest kicking around at home which still functions perfectly (corrugated hose and all)...it will be interesting to see if the HUB can stand the same test of time.
quote:Objections such as stashing occys in pockets are well founded in my opinion ...you can do this on standard bcds but at least they don't encourage it by design...
By the looks of most of them, they don't encourage getting anything into those pockets.
This is not a matter of perception. This is not a matter of taste. I can prove this on an etch-a-sketch.
Just for info - I posted it with no comment regarding DIR, but more for a general interest piece, I wouldn't dive one for all the obvious reasons, but the better point made was the all up cost for the rig is more then the individual parts - is the true in Oz?
Though now that you mention it, that octopus that you got handed in your OOA situation, that was in a zipped up pocket - ?, ZIPS jam up don't they, due to corrosion, sand etc - what would be the outcome in that situation, buddy breathing of a real short hose! Is buddy breathing even taught nowadays?
Brad, Here the price of the rig is less than the sum of the components.
The Occy system on all HUBs in under a velcro cover for the reasons you mentioned, none are in zip pockets. Later HUBs have a clear cover over the Occy for quicker identification of the location. This should be covered in a buudy check anyway.
The aurguments for buying a total piece of gear are very similar to ones in the Hi Fi industry years ago where audiophiles debated buying separate amps, tuners etc as a component system. The hardcore audiophile still does. Some high end manufacturers such a Nakamichi, Bose etc now also offer integrated systems and these also have their place in the market. Who know what gear we will be diving on in ten years time? Why not a "digital" regulator?
quote: what would be the outcome in that situation, buddy breathing of a real short hose! Is buddy breathing even taught nowadays?
correct me if I am wrong Buddy breathing IE two parties breathing off one regulator, is now I believe taught as an option, that is it is up to the instructor if he wishes to teach it or not.
Yes I just looked it up Buddy Breathing is an option and does not need to be taught in the open Water class.
I have always and will always teach it.
Cheers Chris
Narcosis Is The Best State Of Mind.
Edited by - Chris_Sydney on 20 September 2002 08:49:29 AM
I only qualifies OW early this year and we were taught Buddy Breathing as a matter of course, Including practicing lifts while buddy breathing in the pool.
The course was SSI and I had no idea buddy breathing was optional, although when safety is involved I prefer to know more than less.
I am reposting this from a similar thread on www.divernet.com in the uk.
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There's a lot of misinformation going around. People are making up stuff about the HUB and posting it as fact. Some very clever people are perhaps in fear of "change" and making up reasons why the HUB isnt any good. They're wrong. Don't trust anyone's opinion who hasn't actually USED a HUB because there seems to be a lot of misinformation permeating the diving community about this, as well as other new products and technologies. Only 5 years ago, the same people were telling you not to use a Computer because it wasnt as reliable as Tables. Times change, and diving technology moves on.
I own a HUB. Now, contrary to what you might think, I'm not going to tell you how wonderful it is. Because, it does indeed have its faults. But certainly not the ones that are being complained about by the others who answered your question.
I'll do my best to explain what "facts" are fabricated... and then I'll tell you what really IS wrong with the HUB.. so you can make up your own mind with a few extra datapoints of information. *I DO NOT WORK FOR MARES, NOR DO I HAVE ANY BIAS HERE* (other than the fact that I actually have USED a HUB!)
The following points are taken from the message posted by Aquabin but mainly, his link to Dominic Humphries hugely misinformed web site. I wouldnt be surprised if he works for a competitor to Mares because he obviously doesnt know what he's talking about and seems to be on a deliberate missing to deliver false or inaccurate data.
1. He says such dumb things like, if there's a reg fault on your HUB AvantGarde, you need to get a new computer. What tosh. The HUB doesnt have a computer built in (no, not even the AvantGarde!). You use whatever computer you fancy, and of course, if you choose to fit a computer onto the HUB's 1st stage, you can move it just as easily as you can move it from any other 1st stage. I own a VYTEC with Transponder. I also use a Stinger as a backup. If I choose to move the Vytec's transponder, it takes mere seconds - exactly the same time it takes to move it to any other 1st stage on any regulator set.
2. He says that if there is a regulator fault you need a whole new BCD as well as new regulator. Tosh. If you have a regulator fault, you can easily unscrew the regulator from its manifold and screw in a new one. If you so choose, you theoretically dont even need to use a Mares one.. although thatd probably be ideal.. but there's no reason why you can't screw in any other regulator if you so choose. Same with the Octopus. You have the same capability mix and match regulators as you do with any other 1st stage.
3. The only difference between a HUB and a HUB AvantGarde is, (a) The Integrated Weight system, and (b) the Airlock (air powered tank-band tightening system). There is no computer or console on ANY HUB and you use what you choose and either use them separate from the HUB, or screw them in, just like you would on any other bcd or 1st stage. And they can be removed just as easily as on any other bcd!
4. He says if you have a fault on any other regulator in the world, you just send it in and get it repaired. Whereas on the HUB he says you need to send the entire HUB in. Tosh. You simply unscrew the regulator, and send it in, just like on any other regulator in the world. In fact, the regulator in the HUB is a standard Mares one (an Orbiter 16) which you can probably find in any dive centre in the world, and is an extremely popular and capable reg.
5. Then he complains about the neat way the Octopus is stowed in a bright yellow velcro pocket with pull tab on it. Firstly, this to me feels much safer than letting it dangle or trail behind you (like most divers seem to do!). If you so choose, you can leave your Octopus dangling. No one forces you to stow it in its pocket. Or, of course, you can clip it to a D ring on the front of your bcd just like many other divers do. The HUB isnt a religion. You can do what you want with the equipment. It definitely feels neater and more accessible stowed in the pocket where you can quickly find it, but nothing forces you to leave it in there. Put it where you fancy that other divers in need of air will find it the easiest. Want it on your chest, on a clip? fine. Want it in its specially marked pocket where you can reach it easiest, also fine.
6. He says that in an Out Of Air emergency you'll need to find it as soon as possible to give it to your buddy. I personally prefer to know its safely stowed in its velcro pocket and can reach for it intuitively and give it to my Airless buddy immediately. Somehow he seems to think its harder to reach, or slower to access whereas I'd say it was the opposite. And as mentioned in 5, if you really want it clipped to your D ring, you can do that too.
7. Then he complains about the HUB Avantgardes integrated weights. In my opinion, you can make the same pros and cons of ANY and ALL integrated weight systems. At least the HUB Avantgarde's weight system is reliable and mechanical so the weights arent going to fall out accidentally (like some other weight systems ive seen that rely on velcro to keep them in). No one's going to pull your weights off accidentally, as it has to be a deliberate act. Incidentally, whatever integrated weight system you use, you HAVE to explain to your buddy and divemaster what system it is and show them so they will know how to use it in an emergency, or, if you choose not to use the integrated weights, then dont use them. Use a weight belt if you fancy (or buy the regular HUB that doesnt have integrated weights). Nothing forces you to use the HUB's integrated weights if you dont want to. And the system used is at least as good as every other manufacturer's integrated weight systems. I'm personally in two minds as to whether to use integrated weights. I certainly like the convenience and neatness of it, but, i dont like how heavy out of water the bcd, when loaded with its weights, is.
8. He says that the pneumatic deflator valves are a problem and you cant use them manually. Thats not true. The HUB has two deflator valves (operated pneumatically), and two manual dump valves. The Mares pneumatic inflator/deflator system is excellent and works when you are at practically any angle. You dont have an inflator/deflator control that you need to hold upright, and you dont need to be vertical to dump air.. and its now standard fitment on virtually all new Mares & Dacor BCD's. They're excellent and work extremely well! And, if you want to manually dump, there are two dump valves, one at the top and one at the bottom that either you or your buddy can easily access.
7. He says you cant put the Console where you want it so you can see it. Tosh again. You can put the console whereever you want. It comes out of the left pocket and can be positioned anywhere you fancy. I have mine directly in front of me at all times so I can look down whenever I want to see it. The only difference is that the hose for the console comes out from the side instead of from the top. Makes no difference in practical use, and its certainly much neater.
8. Re: Airlock, the tank band tightener. He says after youve tightened your tank band with this, you will worry the entire dive about whether the hose comes loose or is damaged, thus letting your tank slip out. Tosh again. Once tightened, it no longer needs air to retain the tight fit. You could even disconnect the air supply to the Airlock and itd still hold, up until you release it with the lever. The Airlock is indeed a gimmick. A cool one.. but unnecessary.
In short, I've never read more tosh and uninformed comments about a product as I have about the HUB!
Anyway, as I mentioned, im not completely happy with my HUB Avantgarde, and it does indeed have some faults, although none are major.. but they're all are worth considering.
1. Its heavy. All that extra technology and integration widgetry adds extra weight. In particular, the "Airlock" air powered tank band tightener, is made of metal and adds a pound or so. On the regular HUB, it doesnt have this.. so that may actually be an advantage. Of course, when you dive, you'll need to be properly weighted for neutral buoyancy, and any additional weight thats part of the HUB is less weight that you'll need on your weightbelt or integrated weights... so underwater it ends up the same weight. But on dry land, and in your suitcase, the HUB is definitely a few pounds heavier than a regular BCD, but perhaps not as heavy as some technical bcds. Also, for travelling, if you have a separate bcd and reg set, you can stow them separately to maximise space in your suitcase... whereas on the HUB theyre always attached together which means a less flexible packing arrangement... but not by much.
2. Regulator positioning. The primary 2nd stage comes out of a pocket on your right, instead of over your shoulder. For me, this was not a comfortable angle in my mouth... and I felt it tugged to the downwards to the right. The addition of a Swivel Joint on the regulator makes this a lot less of a problem, but the problem doesnt go away entirely and I found myself adjusting the swivel during a dive. And the swivel adds a few ounces of extra weight, which might be noticed. It has been correctly mentioned that a swivel adds an additional point for potential unreliability to the system.
3. Like with most 1st stages, there are only two spare HP ports. The HUB has one in the left pocket, for you to attach the console, and one on the 1st stage at the top. I have my little scubapro console plugged into the pocket socket, and thus the only place left for me to attach the Vytec's transponder is on top of the 1st stage, where it sometimes hits my head during a dive. I havnt found a way around this yet, but I probably will. (I naturally decided against the unsafe solution of relying solely upon the transponder placed in the pocket and not do with a backup console)... of course, I could have had the console plugged in at the top of the 1st stage, with a hose coming down, just like any normal diver... but since the rest of the HUB is externally hoseless, I found this to be a less than ideal solution... (but, if I did it this way, itd certainly work just like any other dive gear). I could also turn the 1st stage upside down, with a bit of fiddling, so the transponder would be downwards. I havnt tried either yet.
Whats right with it?
1. Its literally just one easy package. Easy to transport. Easy to setup. Easy to use.
2. Its got everything built in (except computer, and console).. both of which you can easily add (and should!)
3. Its extremely neat both topside, and underwater. And when you have used it a bit, everything feels natural and comes to hand very easily. Have you ever dropped your regulator and had to tip over, fumbling to find it? Cant happen when the reg is right there emanating from your pocket.
4. No trailing hoses. This is good for reliability since they cant, and wont snag on rocks, coral, or get tangled in any way. Nor will you drag any hoses on the bottom if you swim too deep or your buoyancy isnt perfect. The number of times I've seen divers trailing their Octopus behind them, and it snags on a rock and the diver gets stuck.. is amazing.
The HUB Avantgarde is the same as the HUB with only two differences.. well, three if you include a different colour scheme. 1. It has the Airlock tank band tightener (which adds weight), and 2. It has the integrated weight system. If you dont need either the integrated weights, or the airlock, then get the HUB.. its cheaper and, more importantly, lighter.
Its been said that the HUB is extremely expensive. But if you add up the cost of a high end bcd, with regulator and 1st stage.. and integrated weights etc.. then its about the same, perhaps even a little cheaper. Discounts can be had on any diving equipment if you know where to look, and the same is as true for the HUB as for any separate bcd and regulator.
So...
Would I recommend you to buy one?
Well... only you can decide that. Its definitely not perfect.. but then, the same is true for many other diving products... so the best thing is to try it and see if you like it. Its definitely not the Devil's Spawn, as some would have you believe. Its a perfectly reasonable attempt at furthering the technology, packaging and ease of use of dive gear for the recreational diver.
As mentioned, im not entirely happy with my HUB.. and my next purchase is probably another BCD and Regulator set thats lighter (you can tell that weight is my bugbear). Possibly my next bcd will be the up and coming Mares Morphos (or whatever its called), that, rumour has it, is good for travelling (lightweight and folds up into a little package), and as for a reg... im after lightweight, so it'll prolly be one of the titanium offerings from scubapro or atomic aquatics.
I think in a few years time, with continued development in integrated diving gear.. coming from all the different dive manufacturers, I would bet that the diving community will be more open to adopting such "new fangled" things. The HUB is a good step in the right direction, but it definitely needs more development before its great.
I'm prolly going to get flamed for telling it all as bluntly as this. But it really irked me the way misinformation was being spread and re-spread. Bring it on!
Its about time someone posted a proper report on the H.U.B. system. With out getting into the hole its dangerous, we better not us it attitude.
I think the H.U.B. is a good system for thoughs who want to use it and for thoughs who dont want to use it can get the seperate BCD and Regs they want.
But the most important thing here is not to knock something till you have tried it for yourselfs. Or at least read a report of someone who has tried it. At least then you know the person reviewing the product has got first had knowledge/experience with it.
I use my HUB with Nitrox all the time (its been O2 cleaned). I know the manual says not to..., but thats true of most dive gear. All the best experts I could assemble thought that after O2 cleaning it'd be ok for up to 40% O2 and would be low risk.
HUB is fine on Nitrox with the mixtures you mentioned. Just check the first stage poppet is not the SCS Titanium version - that would be my only concern. There is a replacement stainless steel version for this.
Topic Locked
Posted - 19 September 2002 : 11:45:54 AM
